Art And Lacan Symposium Archive



ARCHIVE - 06/07/04 - 09/22/08

  • are you in analysis with a lacanian Sol?

    Comment by alice — June 7, 2008 @ 12:09 pm

  • Sol - when you say “more unhappy”, is the actual wording standing for “more jouissance”?

    Comment by violet — June 7, 2008 @ 6:41 pm

  • alice they were a ‘lacanian’ when i begun, but it seems things changed.
    It is the long story that seems to preoccupy me and focus my sadness.
    Violet, I don’t know the answer to your question. But it is a good question for me.

    Comment by Sol — June 8, 2008 @ 11:14 am

  • thankyou

    Comment by Sol — June 8, 2008 @ 11:19 am

  • Sol - more than one in the US had to go through what you are describing - the analyst in problems with the School, thus turning away from Lacan - so you say, “I came to you because you brought yourself forward as a lacanian…” he doesn’t answer, “what are you?” if you are lucky he’ll say “I am a pragmatic” and now you know of what you are getting that these are his first steps into a new technique in which he is not even experienced…… difficult

    Comment by violet — June 8, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

  • yes that’s it violet.

    Put like that it makes me reconsider the place of the school.
    A school is a difficult thing; some people practice outside.
    But association with a school always has its difficulties.
    When those difficulties can circulate and become part of the fabric of the school
    (which extend beyond the school)
    that is an enriching thing.
    When the same (hypothetical!) difficulties lead to splitting and re-splitting
    I guess the questions (potentially) raised become more of a series of isolated questions.
    Or disappearing questions.

    I wonder whether it returns to a question of authorisation.
    and by that, desire.
    And a question of the addressee..

    Comment by Sol — June 9, 2008 @ 9:13 am

  • The message-board is fixed and functioning as normally.

    Comment by admin — June 10, 2008 @ 4:33 pm

  • I have been in problems in the matter of a school where to belong - there isn’t a school in the US -
    Jacques-Alain MIller said to me at a certain point, the school is the family,
    and he proceeded to propose the WAP - World Association of Psychoanalysis - as the place to belong
    I’m happy to belong in there

    Comment by violet — June 10, 2008 @ 10:32 pm

  • in any case Sol with lacanians you need the school, especially when it comes to choose an analyst
    because in the “splitting and re-splitting” and with Lacan saying the analyst authorizes himself of himself
    there could be whoever in command

    Comment by violet — June 11, 2008 @ 2:24 pm

  • I think you need the school too violet.
    It is a great sentence: ‘I’m happy to belong in there’

    When an analyst leaves a school - especially suddenly
    it doesn’t just affect him

    Sure you can ask ‘what are you now’
    but acting upon that response (to change analysts say)
    is very difficult when you’re many years into ..something

    The rest I want to say is too personal for the messageboard

    It is interesting to hear that this happens sometimes in the US.

    Comment by Sol — June 12, 2008 @ 12:49 am

  • In my case of “many years into” what happened was he changed the technique
    the sessions got much longer -
    he was eager to please
    the transference fell
    and I couldn’t get Humpty Dumpty together again

    Comment by violet — June 13, 2008 @ 12:46 am

  • hmm.
    For me, I feel (afterwards) that there were several points
    where I colluded with changes that I knew
    in a way were not right-this was part of a perversion
    which was also mine - this is what I find difficult
    to incorporate.
    Alongside this, there is the rest.

    and I would like to ask you -did you start again, with another?
    and over time, did it have value, for you
    and for your work?

    Thanks for speaking about this violet.

    Comment by Sol — June 13, 2008 @ 1:45 am

  • yes, though “started” is not the word, the one I continued with made it very clear my analysis was finished and from now on it was the analysis of my own analysis. I even had a name of symptom I had given myself.
    And that was final…
    –Is THIS my name of Symtom?
    : “that IS your name of Symptom”

    Comment by violet — June 13, 2008 @ 2:13 am

  • Carmen,
    what was the work of Anzieu you initially asked about?
    I think one was ‘work’ or ‘writings’
    But was there another you were looking for?

    I have done a search of Psychoanalytic Electronic Publishing and found a paper of his
    I had wanted to read and that you reminded me of in mentioning him:
    ‘Paradoxical Transference—From Paradoxical Communication to Negative Therapeutic Reaction’

    While there I downloaded a fairly extensive list of his papers and publications-
    I returned to clarify your initial message but it’s gone.

    Comment by Sol — June 15, 2008 @ 11:27 am

  • That is inspiring violet

    Comment by Sol — June 15, 2008 @ 11:28 am

  • Sol - we periodically archive the symposium - Carmen’s message is probably in there: where it says “archive”

    Comment by admin — June 15, 2008 @ 11:01 pm

  • oh yes
    thanks for reminding me.
    I think you have reminded me of that before
    I don’t ever see it..
    Mainly I see the face
    and I avoid looking at that sculpture of the plastic melded children..

    Comment by Sol — June 16, 2008 @ 9:52 am

  • not with the Chapman’s melded children, SOL……… but where it says “archive”

    Comment by admin — June 16, 2008 @ 3:36 pm

  • duh

    Comment by Sol — June 17, 2008 @ 5:07 am

  • Do people still say ‘duh’ in Oz?

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 17, 2008 @ 12:14 pm

  • no

    Comment by Sol — June 18, 2008 @ 5:54 am

  • I quite like it

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 18, 2008 @ 12:00 pm

  • I saw this sculpture awhile ago. I stayed in the room with it for about half an hour
    and all the time kept moving around as it moved and changed as i moved

    In an old BBC interview Anish says this:

    “It seems to me that, yes, the eye is a very very quick instrument, incredibly quick instrument
    - much quicker than the ear. The eye gets it immediately - seconds.
    And I’m interested I think in that moment of immediate recognition.
    An object lives in a space in a particular way, you walk into the space
    and then you say yes that’s it, or that’s not for me - whichever way it goes”

    Comment by Sol — June 18, 2008 @ 9:01 pm

  • But though I tried to download the image onto this page
    it seems not have worked. Here is the link:


    do you leave a space following ‘jpg’ and prior to the ‘alt=Anish Kapoor sculpture/> ?

    Chris - local children use ‘duh’ accompanied by the heel of the hand hitting their forehead
    -it’s a Simpsons reference isn’t it?

    I laughed to find Paul Verhaeghe uses a Simpsons reference in his book ‘Love in a time of loneliness’

    Comment by Sol — June 18, 2008 @ 9:09 pm

  • Sol - after jpg you put quotations, and yes, you leave a space prior to alt: jpg” alt=Anish Kapoor sculpture/>

    Comment by admin — June 19, 2008 @ 2:52 am

  • ‘Duh’ was very big here ten years ago (when my daughter was about 9).
    Have had a few days of sitting in on local arts administration going through the motions of public consultation with imported experts talking about the benefits of ‘cultural tourism’ and the like, so image and text above was a particular pleasure. A pleasure beyond the chit chat of ‘measures’ as they effect the arts.
    Sol, liked your reference to time spent in the room alongside what Anish Kapoor says about looking.
    It makes me think of graph of desire.

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 19, 2008 @ 3:50 am

  • what does Anish Kapoor say about looking?

    Comment by alice — June 19, 2008 @ 4:46 pm

  • - he says its rather quick

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 19, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

  • yes you see i put that quote of his
    because it was at odds with my confrontation with his work.

    I did not experience that sculpture by sight -
    It wasn’t until I was in the room with it, coming
    to an interaction with it, sensing being there with it,
    wanting to see or be inside it - closer, then further away
    wanting to understand the depth
    of the hole,
    wanting to know what was an illusion, what was physical;
    experiencing how the light moved so dynamically between it and i-
    that I grew to appreciate it.

    When I glanced it through the doorway I wasn’t especially interested in it.
    It was only when I went into the room with it, and stayed there awhile.

    In this way it was reminding me a little bit of the lived
    experience of being in the room with the analyst. Of presence and absence
    in the room. Of inhabiting some questions.

    Comment by Sol — June 19, 2008 @ 9:23 pm

  • I start with “yes you see’

    Comment by Sol — June 19, 2008 @ 9:24 pm

  • after Arish Kapoor’s image……… Lacan’s idea that the creation of a vase does not represent a container but rather something closer to a ring. If the world is a ring the void at its center is both inside and outside

    Comment by alice — June 19, 2008 @ 11:51 pm

  • hi sol,
    the name of anzieu’s book is “le corps de l”oeuvre” or the body of work.
    it sustained me for a long time.

    Comment by carmen teixidor — June 20, 2008 @ 11:04 am

  • Sol and Violet. Don’t forget you are beautiful people. You are valued. You have beautiful souls. When we speak the ‘truth’ love begins.

    Comment by Terry1 — June 20, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

  • they are not beautiful, they have no soul……..

    Comment by alice — June 21, 2008 @ 7:31 pm

  • alice is jealous

    Comment by rupert — June 21, 2008 @ 7:34 pm

  • alice you are beautiful, you have a glamourous soul, but you do not speak the truth

    Comment by rupert — June 21, 2008 @ 7:37 pm

  • I went to look for Terry1 (how do you spell the pronounciation of your name Terry1?
    Have you won something? Ever?)
    for what they wrote before.
    I found Terry1 makes encouraging statements.
    That is alright.

    Besides that I encountered a list of who used to be here
    (and now rupert is back)- maybe everyone is still here.

    Braxton Fuzzledorf (very recently)
    Hadi & Majid

    I haven’t included currently speaking ‘people’

    Ambivalence is necessary - I am ugly, worthless and have a soul withered by tar
    (or perhaps that is my lung) - or not.
    Whatever this list of other people are is unimportant in a way.

    If Freud’s psyche is translated as soul then there may be the grace of violence
    the beauty of speaking- the- horror perhaps, but ‘beautiful soul’
    - isn’t it an insult aimed at an hysteric?

    But it’s true I think what T1 says about speaking truth and love.

    PS: violet is a seperate ‘person’ to me.

    Comment by Sol — June 21, 2008 @ 9:05 pm

  • alice (re: 60)
    this reminds me of Freud’s formulation of a ‘boundary idea’
    (I don’t know about the translation-I would suppose that it is boundary ‘vorstellung’)
    from SE 1. Draft K
    That repression takes place …

    “by the intensification of a boundary idea….[forming]
    an undistorted portion of the traumatic memory…..
    manifested… a displacement of attention along a series of ideas
    linked by temporal simultaneity………………….it is a question
    in the first instance of a gap in the psyche”

    The idea of the material, the metal, the ceramic, the imaginary body
    of the vase, or the body, say
    can be understood as covering the gap
    in that it is the idea that creates and maintains the seperation,
    the integrity, the distinctiveness of the ‘inner’ and the ‘outer’
    the self or ego distinct from the void

    (In deep space no one can hear you scream..)

    I don’t know

    Comment by Sol — June 21, 2008 @ 9:50 pm

  • re. a deep space scream:
    Being a long way away for me this afternoon could have to do with an oyster catcher.
    Went with others yesterday to the castle (out at sea) - where the big cockerel lives!
    We were finishing off a film, reworking a voice-over, adding bits and seeing the cockerel and three hens was seeing old friends.
    More surprising still was setting up a camera to film the group looking at a laptop - but hearing only the sound of birds and remembering the famous bird sequence in Tarkovsky’s film, Nostalghia.
    There were other moments after this and other moments include pointing a camera in the direction of a nesting oyster catcher.
    Someone suggested the oyster catcher could be a closing shot and today, I thought about going out there to film the bird one more time.
    However, may well make do with what we have. The oyster catcher, normally a shy bird, is nesting on a low wall close to a ticket office. There’s an improvised cordon, including broom and beneath there’s information on a blackboard saying this bird comes back to this spot each year.

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 22, 2008 @ 8:27 am

  • video?
    onto a Mac?
    What editing program do you use Chris?
    (if not film)

    Do you have a photo of an oyster catcher?
    Are there really oysters there for them to catch?

    Comment by Sol — June 22, 2008 @ 8:40 am

  • Yes work with video and edit with mac.
    At the moment using iMovie, which is not very sophisticated.
    Don’t know much about these birds, only that they’re normally very shy.
    Think there are still oysters in these parts.
    Re. photo, still considering material…

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 22, 2008 @ 8:52 am

  • I’ve just made a little film with the word ‘oyster’ in it
    on imovie
    I can’t post it here
    maybe I could send it you if you’re interested?

    Comment by Sol — June 22, 2008 @ 10:02 am

  • anyway I can’t do it
    I just tried emailing it to myself
    to see if i could
    but I think the file is too large.
    I converted it to quicktime.
    (I’m just learning imovie and garageband)

    It’s called ’round things (you speak so softly)’

    The text(subtitles) at one stage is:
    ‘dragged her from her classroom
    and peeled her to death
    with oyster shells’

    (Hypatia of Alexandria)

    Funny though, the oysters..

    Comment by Sol — June 22, 2008 @ 11:38 am

  • Yes please, Sol.
    You will have to compress the imovie file.
    If you look at the top when imovie is open and find ’share’, then click on ‘email’, the file will be compressed as file suitable for sending.
    Will post my bird.

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 22, 2008 @ 1:09 pm

  • still figuring it out
    (your instructions are clear
    but its not working yet)

    Comment by Sol — June 23, 2008 @ 11:02 am

  • Have received much info. from the London group recently, outlining their case against state registration.
    I am already (state) registered as an art therapist in the UK. and the effects of an ‘evaluation culture’ are already advanced where I try to work.
    At times, working as a therapist seems next to impossible and stuck between an arts bureaucracy and CBT. (sometimes) I feel its time to start dreaming a new way of working…

    Comment by Chris Sands — June 26, 2008 @ 11:43 am

  • Yes, I got this message from the NLS… we should all go… “The congress on the 9th and 10th of May with the title “Lacanian Interpretation”, which will take place in Paris, will be our next meeting as a whole School.”
    And there is an event in London on the 20th September 2008………

    Comment by alice — July 3, 2008 @ 3:27 am

  • As well -there’s the English language Paris seminar which starts next Monday in Paris (’ordinary psychosis’)

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 3, 2008 @ 3:32 am

  • Will you be there CS?

    Comment by alice — July 3, 2008 @ 2:28 pm

  • ordinary psychoses……. Jacques-Alain Miller said in September 1998: “From the moment there is a diversification of norms, we are evidently in the era of ordinary psychosis. What is coherent with the era of the Other that does not exist is ordinary psychosis.” Again, in contrast to the triggering of classical psychoses “the subject has elaborated a sliding, drifting symptom, there is no clear-cut triggering…[] In the era of the Preliminary question, what gives order to the world for Lacan? What is it that makes your thoughts happen in your head and not elsewhere? What is it that makes you feel more or less well in your head and in your body? What is it that gives each thing its place? It’s the Name-of-the-Father, the Name-of-the-Father conceived as signifier of the Other, S(A), that’s to say, as the Other of the Other. Later on, Lacan argues on the contrary – and we can assume that he got the idea from Gödel’s theorem – that there is no Other of the Other. What becomes of the concept of foreclosure of the Name-of-the-Father? It is somehow replaced by the concept of ‘outside-discourse.’ In fact, the routine of conversations as determined by the structure of discourse is what operates the classification and distribution of signifiers.”

    Comment by alice — July 3, 2008 @ 2:34 pm

  • For a long time a question that Alain Badiou asks fascinates me. It has to with contemporary art and something that’s peripheral to not just a predisposition to the symbolic, but also to what’s visible with art in a contemporary sense or in the sense of a predisposition towards capitalism. Badiou seems to imply margins and new net-works, and how to re-invent the Other that doesn’t exist… (?) So, we still say there’s a language of art, but is it a language? A certain cynicism is obvious here, but the cynicism of the art world seems a long way from what Badiou’s getting at. He seems to say, with capitalism there’s a presciption, but there’s also an ‘inexistence’ lacking prescription.
    Alice, will be there hopefully on Monday - and like your ‘routine of conversations’. But doesn’t art turn this routine inside out? Vincent trunderling off to sell a second painting can be a new master signifier - and the Other that doesn’t exist has been around for a while with art.

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 3, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

  • CS - you were saying you are going to Paris to the “Ordinary Psychosis” seminar? that you will be there hopefully on Monday…..? really?

    Comment by alice — July 4, 2008 @ 2:21 pm

  • yes am going, but living on a small island it’s sometimes hoping for the best and buying a plane ticket as well as boat ticket.
    Storms are predicted… but will get to Paris somehow!
    Are you going too?

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 4, 2008 @ 3:27 pm

  • CS - wish I could go… still it’s so nice to know you will be there and back to tell us about
    on my routine of conversations turned upside down by art…. please explain some more

    Comment by alice — July 4, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

  • Miller says: “tous les hommes délirent!” or everybody suffers from delusion. Does it mean that the reference is then empty? the absence of the Thing?

    Comment by rupert — July 4, 2008 @ 8:03 pm

  • rupert - say there is a certain amount of “crazy” we may all discern as such - the neurotics are supposed to like the idea, the hysterical hears voices… I guess it means we all deal with the certain amount of crazy, so called because it lacks a referent.

    Comment by alice — July 5, 2008 @ 1:46 am

  • Yes, but this lack of a ‘referent’ is something that contemporary art has much to say about.
    And the terms ‘direction’ and ‘dis-location’ come up for me, because they’re terms that come up with a video project that I’ve been working on.
    Perhaps (in this instance) a certain listening is possible (some routine between filmmakers) or an editing of material that amounts to a ’stitch up’ - some maddening take on ‘looking’ with a camera.
    And, hopefully, a ’stitching-together’ is ’somehow coherent’, just as Duchamp’s urinal is somehow coherent, but the risk attached to the ‘madness’ will (eventually) be a risk beyond the safety of sessions.
    If we are moving away from Duchamp’s urinal, beyond museums to surroundings that are unfamiliar, Cezanne’s plasticity is still a reference.
    And in this sense theories of ordinary psychosis are surely also later additions… (?)

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 5, 2008 @ 3:48 am

  • Chris Sands, are you gone to Paris?

    Comment by alice — July 13, 2008 @ 2:33 am

  • Bonjour Alice.
    Yes was in Paris for the week long ‘ordinary psychosis’ seminar - and got back last night.

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 14, 2008 @ 2:43 am

  • Will you tell us about it?

    Comment by alice — July 14, 2008 @ 2:05 pm

  • I will have to tell you in small bits because there was so much to it, but will say more later this week (when have some time).
    M-H Brousse indicated something would be published later.
    So, main speakers (JA Miller, Maire Helene B, PG Gueguen, Eric Laurent, Alexandre Stevens, Russell Grigg, JP Klotz, Thomas Slovos) addressed the concept of ‘ordinary psychosis’, which is seen generally as a ‘working hypothesis’. Added to this were some fine case studies, so there was little time to wander off into Paris during the course of six very full days.
    Will write something later, but what seemed important, I think, was an expression of the late Lacan (and clinical implications of this work) beyond Joyce and the sinthome, beyond what may be the case with ‘extraordinary psychosis’. So, in a sense, the sinthome beyond something sometimes extraordinary about the sinthome.

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 15, 2008 @ 3:26 am

  • I made lots of notes during the seminar (and others afterwards), but dread looking back at those made during the seminar. Towards the end of the week we were invited to leave a few comments and I wrote about two presentations at the start. I was already revising how I saw these two presentations and more than this, will have to do a ‘little more’ thinking about the week.
    At the beginning it seemed psychoanalysis sometimes has to forget that the work of art is always some kind of ‘work in progress’, despite constant reference to ‘ordinary psychosis’ as a ‘working hypothesis’.
    On Monday, Russell Grigg talked about Joyce’s ’swarm’ of s1’s. Without any hope of s2’s or quilting points, Joyce had developed a slow moving paradigm that places ’sense’ beyond a set of signifiers. The ‘paradigm’ becomes a different kind of paradigm for psychoanalysis. Joyce couldn’t be analyzed, but the work of Joyce pushes Lacan to invent a symptom that takes coherence beyond the expectations of analysts.
    On Tuesday, Pierre Gilles Gueguen rescues Genet from Sartre in an extraordinary presentation. With ‘St Genet’, Sartre goes too far, naming Genet’s symptom and the consequences are disastrous for Genet. And it takes time and the friendship of Alberto Giacometti for Genet to recover.
    PGG makes the case that Genet sought a normality, unlike Joyce, which he achieved through through his work and symptom. Because of this, Sartre steals something - taking knowledge away from Genet. The writer recovers from St Genet posing for Giacometti and this history seems a parable for psychoanalysis - and the ‘working hypothesis’ called ‘ordinary psychosis’. There’s referemce to JA Miller’s ‘Interepretation in Reverse’ and to an unconscious which is already an interpretation. With ‘ordinary psychosis’ - interpretation remains on the side of the analysand.

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 20, 2008 @ 4:17 am

  • Comment by Chris Sands — July 20, 2008 @ 4:26 am

  • Interesting Chris,
    good to hear more as you’re working it through..

    Comment by sol — July 20, 2008 @ 5:55 pm

  • Have also come away from the seminar feeling a distance. One speaker spoke of psychoanalysis as a city profession and another talked about an application of analysis - only ‘valid’ as the result of an analysis. So, I feel the distance, but sometimes side with Joyce. So ‘working through’ also has to do wandering around Paris with a video camera and writing up other notes too. Perhaps compensating for lack of access to psychoanalysis, but also working sometimes in a clinical setting, I make a case and in making a case run close to an exhaustion. In the last presentation, Eric Laurent spoke about work that sought to interrupt a continuum. It reminded me of some emphasis in the Courtil papers on the exhaustion of autistic children. I’ve begun to respond to the seminar through my blog and hope to attach video to it shortly.
    Comment 92 was an attempt to paste a Giacometti portrait of Genet

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 21, 2008 @ 3:50 am

  • I wonder about the pace of things and with contemporary art, a sense of how the work of art can be seen or how it is seen, includes duration and anOther - who mostly exists in passing.
    Papers on this site and presentations during the recent Paris English language seminar persist with a rigour that’s consistent with what might be called university discourse. It takes time to present a case and its unfolding persists alongside an assumption that listening and reflection take time.
    The cartel idea suggests praxis needs looking after, but what ex-sists between contemporary art and psychoanalysis?
    With psychoanalytic theory there’s reference to the work of Freud and Lacan (in these parts), but the references adopt the pace of the university or the school. If contemporary art mostly includes the assumption that the Other only ex-sists in passing, new work has something in common with the pace of an online symposium or messageboard - but unlike art and analysis, there is no fee attached to online commentaries.
    I wonder what would happen if JA Miller, Badiou, Zizek and others spent some time online, somewhere a little public… ?
    With online conversations, there’s surely the possibility of something imaginary, symbolic and real… and some detachment from the style of the university?

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 26, 2008 @ 6:19 pm

  • Is everybody on holiday?

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 28, 2008 @ 3:32 pm

  • I am on the very opposite of holiday
    but your question about the pace of things..

    I have been flicking over to here and to the messageboard a bit
    but seem to have nothing to say

    apart from if there is no fee attached to online commentaries,
    or conversations,
    it doesn’t mean there isn’t a price

    Comment by sol — July 29, 2008 @ 10:26 am

  • WOW, that is an intriguing say…….. Sol, if only we could know more about “there is no fee attached to online commentaries, or conversations, it doesn’t mean there isn’t a price

    Comment by alice — July 29, 2008 @ 2:12 pm

  • Sol, do you mean ‘cost’ in the sense that having something to say is part of attempts to regulate a jouissance
    - and that jouissance sometimes has to do with discontents surrounding psychoanalysis, ‘mental health’, contemporary art … ?
    Right now, extraordinary things are happening with ‘mental health’ where I live (or at least I think so) and what is being played out in public (or political) settings seems sometimes to ‘mirror’ what might be the case with ‘ordinary psychosis’ in settings which are less than public. From time to time, if not too often, I allude to an extraordinary state of affairs here, and little bits of jouissance mixed up with desire are traces of attempts to make sense of things closer to an unfolding. The unfolding can be an unfolding of symbolic, imaginary and real (here) but miles away, they may seem coated with a jouissance that’s painful to read… ?
    Abstraction is the price of ‘bigger picture’, but the real ‘keeps me up at night’…

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 30, 2008 @ 4:33 am

  • ps.
    Sol, ‘being on the very opposite of holidays’ is a phrase I can go along with, despite it being sultry mid summer here.

    Comment by Chris Sands — July 30, 2008 @ 4:43 am

  • I don’t know much about what I wrote,
    spontaneously. Now what I think is
    that I have a sense of being somewhat invested here,
    and pay with my words;
    the risk in what I write and hear(read),
    and sometimes with my ego:

    I remember being quite humiliated by someone’s response
    to what I wrote once: a long time ago now.

    Since violet’s responses about an analyst
    who leaves the school and is no longer
    in the room, the sense of investment
    in this place is stronger for me.

    But more interestingly, what do others think?

    (By the opposite of holiday Chris, sadly, obliquely, I refer to death)

    Comment by sol — July 30, 2008 @ 6:58 am

  • If I press this button both sites (messageb+sympos) will register 102

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 1, 2008 @ 5:56 pm

  • how to be the one to break the symmetry? with movement I guess, with a dancer, tiny one, like a shadow

    Comment by alice — August 2, 2008 @ 11:25 pm

  • Sol’s running with the messageboard (103 to 107 next door), is it a game of hide and seek?

    Yes I think art went next door for a bit, but can anybody help find it?
    It was the same problem in Paris. Whole days spent at 31 Rue des Navarins, then running out, looking around Paris (for something).
    I found a metro station called Blanche with a dirty wall - and have a photo to prove it, but something lingers which came with the last presentation.
    Eric Laurent talked of pausing moments in therapy (analysis) - little ‘fort da’ moments (perhaps) - hide and seek moments - little moments in ‘Entracte’ when a ‘fluttering’ film catches a pulse that will never read.
    Perhaps there’s a film title somewhere here - for a video I had to make rushing out of Rue des Navarins…

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 3, 2008 @ 8:48 am

  • yes you spoke about the ‘pausing moments’ or the interruption
    of a ‘continnuum’ just before.
    I think of death and how it slows things down for me
    -for nurses, waiting for awhile, then doing the laying out,
    but can you talk more about that>

    I think of this ‘rushing out’ and then the reflection that comes before the title..

    Comment by sol — August 3, 2008 @ 10:20 am

  • Sol,
    you can see ‘Entracte’ at
    I was thinking of the funeral procession… the cast includes many famous artists of the period (made in 1924) including Duchamp, who you mentioned when art took hold on the messageboard recently.
    (there’s also a Badiou Duchamp paper in the new Symptom).
    Rushing out onto the streets of Paris was a personal response to the seminar but it had little to do with presentations and more to do with the video camera in my bag.
    Badiou says something about the work of art being subordinate to psychoanalysis, so while I wanted to hear a new version of interpretation, I was busy plotting the revenge of art.
    How ungrateful can I be?
    You mention ‘laying out’
    and Lacan mentions a
    ‘laying down’
    of the gaze
    in seminar eleven -
    in the sense that (what he calls)
    can be the antithesis of
    the gaze.
    If this, in part, has to do with the gaze of psychoanalysis, Bergman’s ‘Seventh Seal’ looks at death and the gaze.
    The knight plays chess with death in this film and Duchamp plays chess in ‘Entracte’.

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 3, 2008 @ 12:14 pm

  • Man Ray and Marcel Duchamp playing chess

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 6, 2008 @ 2:55 pm

  • the chimneys )?) in the background
    are like distorted mirror images of the chess pieces

    Comment by sol — August 7, 2008 @ 10:02 pm

  • The rooftops and chimneys appear in first sequences at the start of ‘Entracte’.
    Duchamp (like John Cage) eventually elevates chess at the expense of art;
    a sublimation, that’s political not solitary,
    but in hindsight sinthom-atic.
    A long time ago, I remember reference to Loenzo Chiesa’s book (Subjectivity and Otherness, MIT) and the author’s suggestion at the end that sinthomes don’t talk to each other.
    Duchamp took issue with a history of art but in a Zizek sense, chess becomes a way of dispelling what can’t be dispelled.
    For Duchamp possibly,
    artchess because sinthomes don’t stop talking to each other (or playing chess) …

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 8, 2008 @ 4:03 am

  • in 109 above
    had written
    art equals chess (as a diamond)
    but the software collapses art equals chess as

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 8, 2008 @ 4:07 am

  • Chris if I email you a jpeg file is it easy for
    you to load it onto your wordpress then post it from
    there in response to terry1’s comment next door?

    I can’t just paste from my desktop can I?

    Comment by sol — August 8, 2008 @ 9:04 am

  • artchess is good
    -> archer-ess
    -> art chest
    -> pseudonym of the duchess
    -> an indecisive moment : shall I play, or play?

    Comment by sol — August 8, 2008 @ 9:32 am

  • Sol, if you put up an image that is in the internet the formula we give on the top lines is the perfect one,
    you have to watch though that the quote marks are not the curly ones, or it won’t work, that every single letter and sign is there.. and then if it doesn’t work, I’ll fix it.

    Comment by admin — August 10, 2008 @ 1:00 am

  • Thanks admin, but it was something I made
    when I read Terry1’s post,
    and isn’t on the internet

    Comment by sol — August 10, 2008 @ 6:42 am

  • I’m trying this out for posting an image you’ve made or manipulated
    (with the advice
    of mactalk)
    - a PC user will go through the exact same steps.

    You don’t need an account with ImageShack.

    1. Go to ImageShack® - Image Hosting

    2. Upload your photo(s).
    3. Copy/paste the link, here, as you would when you post a reply.

    Though it hasn’t quite worked yet..
    I’ll practice

    Comment by sol — August 10, 2008 @ 8:33 am

  • A cloud through my NYC window

    Comment by admin — August 10, 2008 @ 4:11 pm

  • It works Sol… though it took a while to figure out… it’s great for images that happen to be outside the internet… thank you!

    Comment by admin — August 10, 2008 @ 5:31 pm

  • oh good.
    such a clear cloudy day

    did you select - to forums
    -to sites or -direct?

    Comment by sol — August 11, 2008 @ 6:37 am

  • that cloud now happens to be
    outside and inside [the internet]

    I still can’t figure it

    Comment by sol — August 11, 2008 @ 7:12 am

  • When I figure imageshack out,
    I want to post a photo of (outside) my window, here, beside me
    (to my right - it’s dawn, and misty)

    Do you remember the question ~ a year ago, on this board,
    ‘what is outside your window’?

    The temporal/spatial ‘thing’ of this board, and us, around the globe
    and in here, would give rise
    to another level of questions and experience I’m thinking, if others also
    wanted to post such photos, following admin’s beautiful
    window/cloud contribution..

    Comment by sol — August 11, 2008 @ 5:17 pm

  • As to Sol’s question in message 108 - I selected the “direct” even though it says: DO NOT Use Link Below when posting. Use FORUM Links above for post. And that’s how it took me a while to figure things out. The other possibilities make tiny thumbnails… and so

    Comment by admin — August 11, 2008 @ 10:32 pm

  • Did you help my message to appear on the messageboard Admin?
    Or did it just take a long while to load?

    Comment by sol — August 12, 2008 @ 4:47 am

  • morning window

    Comment by sol — August 12, 2008 @ 8:17 am

  • img src=”” alt=”Image Hosted by”/>By lossss, shot with Cameras at 2008-08-12

    Comment by sol — August 12, 2008 @ 8:24 am

  • For the objet a in the messageboard, Sol, I put it up with Shack Hosting. I uploaded it many times because I tried the many addresses, and it kept appearing very small, like a thumbnail, till I found the address I had used for my cloud - the direct - that says “DO NOT Use Link Below when posting. Use FORUM Links above for post,” and that worked - it let me use a bigger image and without a kind of black label that appears with the thumbnail…

    Comment by admin — August 12, 2008 @ 9:18 am

  • Sol’s cloud

    Comment by admin — August 12, 2008 @ 9:26 am

  • I hope this works
    - its the ‘photo through window idea’.
    If can’t do it, the address is below.
    - it’s not a cloud

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 12, 2008 @ 5:34 pm

  • The photo prompts another blog (, which is keeping up with making a short video (11 mins) recently finished, at least in one version.
    Despite the title (’when birds don’t fly into windows’), it has to do with the pace of video and the pace of a text (which lags behind).
    At the end I want to reconcile the two (but never can), but in this instance a short sequence from the text shown in the blog triggers some kind of resolution with the film.
    I tried to take this photo last night when the light was better, but was too tired to find a tripod.

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 12, 2008 @ 5:51 pm

  • All I did CS, was add < img src =" before the address you wrote and "> at the end

    Comment by admin — August 13, 2008 @ 12:15 am

  • And Sol - I do remember the question, a year ago, on this board, ‘what is outside your window’?

    Comment by admin — August 13, 2008 @ 2:15 am

  • I think the question (130) was a little inspired by Gerard Wajcman’s INTIME texts
    or the thought that an intimacy is possible beyond an insistence (with psychoanalysis) that sessions should be live.
    In this sense contemporary art reaches parts that a ‘city profession’ can’t reach,
    supposing there is a
    beyond ‘reality TV’ and pictures of tanks peering into someone’s bedroom.

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 13, 2008 @ 4:27 am

  • thanks Admin re pic 127 - but can you make it quite a bit smaller?
    The picture fits a wordpress blog page but looks too big here

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 13, 2008 @ 4:31 am

  • (postcript) Alain Badiou talks of contemporary arts subordination to psychoanalysis, but
    does an insistence that sessions should be live (JAM) mean that
    analysis can never free itself from contemporary art?

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 13, 2008 @ 4:54 am

  • Do you mean Chris, that the kind of psychoanalytic
    practice of contemporary art you refer to
    might be something other than applied psychoanalysis
    (as in Freud’s development of that with his work on Jensen, Leonardo,
    Totem etc.)
    I am not at all familiar with conversations and papers you mention
    on the (broad) topic, so allow me the ignorant question.
    Is Miller’s reference taken as a position against applied PA/
    or is your position that contemporary art can stand in, or stand
    out, as an analytic encounter for the viewer/the one who comes
    across it. And where is the artist?

    Comment by sol — August 13, 2008 @ 11:49 am

  • There’s ‘applied psychoanalysis’ and ‘pure psychoanalysis’ and a paper online here somewhere, written by JA Miller,
    but not being an analyst, I was talking as an artist talking about psychoanalysis,
    just as analysts talk about contemporary art.
    Analysts look after ‘applied psychoanalysis’,
    but ‘looking’ in seminar eleven is reference to a ‘taming of the gaze’.
    The sort of taming that artists do when they carry on looking - despite the gaze
    Like Tracy Emin, I sometimes return to (untidy) beds
    and a ‘laying down’ of jouissance…
    … and according to Lacanians in London, the state plans banning the term psychoanalysis by 2011,
    in which case,
    only artists will
    ‘take to the couch’
    en masse

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 13, 2008 @ 1:38 pm

  • banning the ‘term’??!!

    Comment by sol — August 13, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

  • Banning use of the term, another words the plan is to call analysts psychotherapists, who will be state registered rather than registered with a school

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 14, 2008 @ 3:33 am

  • or else? You cannot practice publically?
    Or you cannot practice at all?

    Here, one cannot be employed
    in the public sector as a psychoanalalyst (OR a psychotherapist
    in fact) - only as a psychiatrist, psychologist or social or welfare worker..

    Comment by sol — August 14, 2008 @ 5:09 am

  • The implication would be that psychoanalysts can practice, but would be called psychotherapists and registered by the state.
    It seems to be too late in the UK already, but legislation forcing these changes is hotly opposed by Lacanians in France (see forum, evaluation topic).
    State registration happened 10 years ago with art therapy (in the UK) and the profession now seems to be shredding theoretical foundations in favor of versions of ‘evidence based practice’ - and jobs in the NHS.
    State regulation is not the same as the regulation of a school, as the state (surely) can only exert a ‘normalizing influence’ … and surely a conceptualisation of ‘normal psychosis’, for example, only works in the context of what happens in sessions … ?
    re a ‘normalizing influence
    ‘What can be the function of the state as third person in sessions?
    -a ‘Nom de Pere’?
    and if a function is implied, what of the sinthome?

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 14, 2008 @ 8:52 am

  • There’s a little irony too.
    On an art therapy communication system, there’s presently reference to what is called ‘disassociative attachment disorder’ or ‘DAD’.
    So, is this evidence that the ‘Nom de Pere’ has become a DSM category?

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 14, 2008 @ 1:34 pm

  • of le Nom du Père becoming a DSM category… are you implying the UN Father which relates to psychosis?

    Comment by alice — August 16, 2008 @ 10:19 am

  • yes, but it was only joke

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 16, 2008 @ 11:34 am

  • in any case the foreclosed Nom du Père wouldn’t be out of context in a DSM category… right?

    Comment by alice — August 16, 2008 @ 2:53 pm

  • How?
    Could we get stuck here?
    If something is foreclosed, you might think that it’s absent in one place and present in another, but what of DSM categories and the ‘Nom de Pere’?
    Could we say that for some clinicians, DSM constitutes one of the ‘names of the father’ … ???

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 16, 2008 @ 4:03 pm

  • I think so, yes, DSM categories should account for certain clinicians the way A (Other) or S1, S2 make up for the names of the father with lacanians.

    Comment by alice — August 16, 2008 @ 6:46 pm

  • as with Freud, I don’t know if people who use it, really read it.

    I was just having a look to try to find it’s definition
    of ’serious mental illness’
    again, as with Freud, it is (surprisingly) openly fallible,

    it says although it is a classification system
    of ‘mental’ disorders, it admits that there is no definition
    and that ‘the problem raised by the term is
    much clearer than its solution’..
    in fact it even says ‘unfortunately the term persists in the title’
    of DSM IVr)

    very surprising

    Comment by sol — August 16, 2008 @ 11:28 pm

  • We seem to have moved away from ‘looking out of the window’ - which seemed so promising.
    Here it’s almost raining…

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 20, 2008 @ 5:25 pm

  • It’s interesting however to read about Freud’s fallibility when it comes to ’serious mental illness’… don’t Lacan’s conclusions about foreclosure with regard to the name of the father - one of his huge discoveries - follow up from there?

    Comment by alice — August 20, 2008 @ 10:01 pm

  • But now the shift away from the N de P
    to ‘names of the father’
    also suggests what’s being called ‘ordinary psychosis’ - and an exhaustion that prompts interpretation as punctuation … (?)

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 21, 2008 @ 2:40 pm

  • Hopefully submitting work for a show,
    I’ve included a quotation
    as a ‘conversational piece’ (in more ways than one):
    and want to include it here …

    ‘Quotation as conversational piece’
    John Baldessari
    I think artists always have an anxiety, because they don’t know who they’re reaching: a stand-up comedian, people boo and walk out, the comedian knows right away. Somebody singing in a musical knows right away but we don’t. In fact we never know. I liked Bruce Nauman’s first show in LA but I only told him ten years later, and he said, ‘You know people are just telling me how much they liked it’.
    - taken from ‘Again the Metaphor Problem and Other Engaged Critical Discourses about Art’ (SpringerWienNewYork 2008)

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 21, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

  • That’s an interesting idea Alice,
    I think there is fallibilty, that is, an acknowledgement that we
    can’t know everything, that what we do know is flawed, and that we
    keep working. I think of this as evidenced in Freud’s footnotes
    and revisions, and for me, equivalent to the taking up of

    The failure to symbolise a limit that might link the drive and the
    signifier is distinct for me as it’s not a subjective position.

    So fallibility and failure are not related in that sense.

    The interesting thing for me is how they might be socially elaborated
    to the point where they do cross over. In that many appear to take
    either Freud’s work or the DSM as Master discourses, totalitarian texts,
    and so the castration effect is unulled.
    Or stopped/
    its effect of allowing desire to associate, elaborate
    metonymically is foreclosed into a ‘final word’

    But metaphorically, and perhaps clinically, a fallibilty with regard
    approaching psychosis may speak to foreclosure - in that thorough
    structures are put in place by many who work with psychosis:
    Lacan, but also Winnicott for instance. A structure in the
    position of the third may be what Freud was lacking/developing..

    Comment by sol — August 22, 2008 @ 12:14 am

  • The sublime, gradually divided into separate entities as we grow in
    does not readily merge in our mind;
    this means that we are deprived in stages of the best thing granted to
    of sense of oneness which lifts us up completely into sharing a sense of
    the infinite;
    and on the other hand,
    we are all the time diminishing in stature as we grow in knowledge.
    Whereas before we were like giants in view of the whole,
    we now see ourselves as dwarfs in the face of separate sections.
    Goethe, Maxims & Reflections, 1749-1832.

    Comment by sol — August 22, 2008 @ 6:29 am

  • With the seminar ‘Encore’, as name suggests, there’s reference to a ‘relentless’ jouissance, but if the Other no longer exists (by the time of ‘Encore’), what happens to the signifier?
    There were many references to Joyce during the recent ‘ordinary psychosis’ seminar and on one occasion, reference to a ’swarm’ of signifiers.
    What would Joyce have thought?
    In the context of psychoanalysis and ‘ordinary psychosis’, analysts will spend 300 years making sense of Joyce,
    but in another context, the context of contemporary art, there may be other strategies.
    What happens to the function of art when it’s far removed from the function of ’social realism’?
    When art frees itself from the superego, can it talk to responsibilities? Can a swarm of signifiers talk to responsive-ness?
    Is this sense, what happens to responsibility freed from the constraints and imperatives of the superego?
    If art has a function, what is its function (alongside Joycean symptoms and an ‘ordinary psychosis’)?
    Two dimensional painting, thee dimensional video and Lacan’s fourth dimension, can it seems function to simulate the limiting function of signifiers and the effects of castration,
    but it amounts to an ‘insurgency’… to some kind of failing or hapless guerilla warfare.
    But then, as Lacan said in seminar XV11, organizing a fallible revolution takes time …

    Comment by Chris Sands — August 22, 2008 @ 5:32 pm

  • Will be going to the rally in London next week. Info about it is at
    then top left ‘Rally of Impossible Professions’.
    Have seen JA Miller’s short reference to Sarah Pallin.
    It made me think not of ‘feminization of politics’, but of castration by proxy.
    Democracy not so much as subject and Other, but as One and object and the lure of Pallin as the lure of ‘consistency’.
    If symbolic processes are no longer credible (and if the Other no longer exists), will the object be a castrating object … ?

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 13, 2008 @ 3:11 pm

  • It would be good to hear of the Rally OIP CS

    Comment by Sol — September 14, 2008 @ 9:45 am

  • Has spring arrived ‘down under’ ?

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 14, 2008 @ 10:13 am

  • yes, thankfully, the blossums and bulbs are out,
    the paddocks on the outskirts of town are full of wobbly shivering lambs,
    it’s windy and changeable, and everyone seems relieved..
    including me.

    and there?

    Comment by Sol — September 14, 2008 @ 10:48 pm

  • it is warm and damp in NY, 27º C / 80º F and mosquitos do bite, and they are awful tonight… from tomorrow on it should get much much better

    Comment by alice — September 15, 2008 @ 12:23 am

  • new window image for
    new image season

    Comment by Sol — September 15, 2008 @ 8:43 am

  • nothing

    Comment by Sol — September 15, 2008 @ 8:46 am

  • Sol, do you mean that you tried to post another image and nothing happened
    or you are posting nothing (no image)??
    I often associate the idea of a ‘lost object’ with a someone, but tonight felt panic when I thought I’d lost my mobile.
    There are rational excuses in this instance, cost, practicalities (about to go somewhere for a few days), but for a while I felt so bereft, due to the loss of my little phone…
    Your window with nothing in it has joined my mobile lost for 45 minutes.

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 15, 2008 @ 5:05 pm

  • tried twice to post
    and nothing
    but i relate to your predicament as well CS

    Comment by Sol — September 15, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

  • Image Hosted by
    I did it with Image Shack, Sol — yours was a wonderful discovery

    Comment by admin — September 15, 2008 @ 11:14 pm

  • I can finish Alice’s song… and mosquitos do bite, and they are awful tonight, and you smell just like citronella

    Comment by admin — September 16, 2008 @ 1:33 am

  • Sol - Chris - with Image Shack you cannot fail to upload images

    Comment by alice — September 16, 2008 @ 3:15 am

  • Well alice..sometimes there is a subject supposed to fail..

    Comment by Sol — September 16, 2008 @ 9:01 am

  • Amazing photo alice,
    the cocktail of uniform baby
    and benzodiazipines..

    Comment by Sol — September 16, 2008 @ 9:03 am

  • Sol - it didn’t work, an other address may do it. most important is to control the quotation marks you add are not oblicoual but straight

    Comment by admin — September 16, 2008 @ 3:50 pm

  • Alice, can you say something about this photo ?
    Really surprising image

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 16, 2008 @ 5:03 pm

  • well. it was imspired by “and mosquitos do bite, and they are awful tonight, and you (the baby) smell just like citronella”

    she is leaving the baby so tiny… so he/her better smell just like citronella

    Comment by alice — September 16, 2008 @ 5:40 pm

  • ha!
    baby as ‘natural repellant’!?

    Comment by Sol — September 16, 2008 @ 7:05 pm

  • oh well, Sol, that’s something… even more than what I projected as contradictory feelings in the mother soldier that has to deal with her CHOiCE to leave the baby child in behalf of her patriotic destiny.

    Comment by alice — September 17, 2008 @ 3:00 am

  • CS - did you read the Miller article in the contents page, Operation Castration? Sarah Palin and the babies is quite an issue

    Comment by alice — September 17, 2008 @ 3:02 am

  • I might butt in-
    I thought of the paper when I was driving
    I thought of the photo
    I thought of the baby as a phallus
    and taken, and as a semblance,
    but I thought firstly (later) of the mother as a semblance who was (already) taken
    and not fitting the paper on Palin
    not so clear CUT
    but informed by it
    between it because she is between it

    Comment by Sol — September 17, 2008 @ 10:17 am

  • But what happens (with this photo) if we put Antigone in the frame?
    She looks like she’s already buried her Polynices and the baby’s not real if Antigone has no children.
    Dressed in her brother’s clothes, she ponders a parting gesture for the camera,
    but will leave before the next shot…
    … Antigone’s not like Palin…

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 17, 2008 @ 5:50 pm

  • “…churns out children all while holding a shotgun …a new race of political women rise to power…” “Sarah impassions America, she brings a new Eros to politics” from JA Miller’ Sarah Palin: Operation “Castration”.

    Comment by alice — September 19, 2008 @ 10:40 pm

  • is Palin fascinating do you think, alice and CS?

    I only know this excerpt from Miller, but in order to find out a bit about
    her impression, last night I asked a
    few people about what they thought of her, and they all gave one story,
    and then paused
    and then said something like ‘but she is kind of fascinating’

    Comment by Sol — September 20, 2008 @ 11:46 am

  • Don’t know about this politician, but have just heard JA Miller and others speak in London.
    Miller referred, I thought, to a foreclosing of the unconscious and how this process inevitably nourished the unconscious. There was much reference in the ‘rally’ to what could happen with state regulation of psychoanalysis and how this drift can be part of other tendencies. In a broad sense, an ‘audit culture’ oversees a move from words to numbers. With therapy, CBT’s tick is ‘what remains of a slaughtered animal’. All in all, the rally was saturated with keen insight and with a call to action at the end.
    I will do my best to say a bit more about this (conversational) rally, but a call to action takes me to the place that I talk from.
    As someone already professionally subject to state regulations, I’m already marginalized. The mental health environment where I live and work is almost exclusively behaviorist, which means there is little or no gap between the imperatives of regulation and the possibilities of an art based or talking therapy. Let’s say, in this instance, the work is foreclosed, but the work continues beyond statutory services - in isolation. Let’s say there is little hope but hope itself shines eternal.
    However, as a backdrop, an internationally notorious historic child abuse enquiry threatens the foreclosing effects where I live and these effects imply the dangers of state regulation. Recently I attended a meeting where ‘survivors’ called for independent therapy services. This call is made in the context of state managed abuse and understandably a call for independent services is a (symbolic) call for less of the same. In this instance, a foreclosing of the unconscious means the function of therapy becomes a police matter and here, the police are at odds with the judiciary.
    These may be some indicators of what happens when therapy is subject to state regulation and CBT rules the waves…

    Comment by Chris Sands — September 22, 2008 @ 4:27 am